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    « A Message from our Friends at St. Paul's, New Orleans on Haiti and our work together | Main | Missional Renaissance: Week 2! »

    February 22, 2010

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    Rick Seelhoff

    The First Song of Isaiah resonates for me this morning and seems altogether fitting to the intro:

    Cry aloud inhabitants of Bremerton (and Seattle, and Lakewood, and in all Western Washington, unto the uttermost parts of the earth), ring out your joy...

    The Lord is our stronghold and our sure defense, and he will be our Savior. Therefore we draw water with rejoicing from the springs of salvation...

    Make his deeds know among the peoples...

    Let the redeemed of the Lord say so!

    I have observed, and that only recently, that Joy, one of the fruits of the Spirit which the world cannot give, is contagious. It begins with the joy of the Lord - our Redeemer's joy, which is our strength. And then it spreads - sometimes like leaven, sometimes like sap, sometimes like fire, from one to another. He gives us his joy. That we may "know what is the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints". Beyond my wildest dreams. Thanks be to God.

    When I ponder on Reggie's three major shifts mentioned above, that's where I go first. Now to where those high-falutin' fully inflated tires might hit the crusty and dusty day-to-day real-life roads here in Bremerton... well, we'll see, won't we!

    Rick Seelhoff

    Sorry... happens all the time.

    Thank you! Please drive through! LOL!

    JoAnn Winesdorfer

    I'm not sure I'm going to be comfortable with the ideas in this book, at least as expressed so far. It sounds to me like the author is saying the church of the future will be total social outreach and little or no formal worship.

    I have always supported social outreach but don't like giving up my worship experience. I'm also wondering if he is going to say that the missional church will replace government social programs or at least give encouragement to those who want to eliminate those programs.

    I'm also wondering if this missional church will become like a Rotary, Kiwanis, or Elks? But I will withhold judgment until I have read further in this book.

    Greg Rickel

    You are making some pretty big leaps and assumptions that I don't believe the author is. I do not hear him using the term or the idea "social outreach" but of fully engaging our community around us, carrying our blessings to the world, instead of making social outreach a convenient project, that in many cases is more to make us feel good about ourselves, if we were honest. I realize that is a bit of a jump, but this might also be the difference between charity and justice. I think reading on is a good idea. And a little discomfort might do us all a bit of good.

    Greg

    Gary Young

    I think I'll sit this year out and watch to see if anyone honestly discusses the topics in the book. Last year I felt like everyone left because I was commenting, or maybe no one was interested in addressing the stated ideas. I shutter as I recall the long run destruction of culture and self esteem of the converted savages by the missionaries. Who is this new missionary effort going to attack, what are their real objectives, and what is involved here besides finding a new target after power and control of the old target is no longer successful? If we were to really help the underprivileged, wouldn't standing up to the right wing religious attack and fixing the political system have much more real effect than isolated individual feel good efforts?

    Gary

    JoAnn Winesdorfer

    "If we were to really help the underprivileged, wouldn't standing up to the right wing religious attack and fixing the political system have much more real effect than isolated individual feel good efforts?"

    Thanks Gary, these were my thoughts as I read the intro and first chapter. But I feel a bit better as I read the second chapter.

    I hope you will continue to post on this blog and not hold back.

    Margie Adams

    Christian mission work really began with the translation of the Scriptures into the vernacular. The importance of this ought not be overlooked, not only because the Word moved rapidly through the world but also because it affirmed the indigenous peoples. Yes, there were dreadful misuses, but it also brought affirmation of languages and societies in significant and valuable ways. McNeal talks about mission as a type of grassroots movement, which I liken to the Ministry of the Baptized that has recently and so importantly come to fruition after such a long spell in a hierarchical church. I see this idea as a “top down” and a “bottom up” concept. This is important because we all have a role to play here. Yes, we can look at this politically or through evangelical eyes, but we can choose to read this book in order to understand how we can make use of the roads the evangelicals already have laid.

    Kevin Johnson

    I just picked up the book today at the Cathedral Shop, and anxious to get started on it, though reluctant to put down "The First Paul" by Borg and Crossan (I've sub-titled it, "Good Paul/Evil Paul").

    I can't make comments regarding the book yet, but, having grown up in the "right," and currently living in the "left," if I were to discover it is about temporal political machinations of left or right, I would be disappointed. I think we are to be about much more than that, though such a focus would seem be about much less to some.

    I rather enjoyed last year's discussion, and hope that all will feel free to share their thoughts, even in loving disagreement.

    This morning, I had the privilege of taking photos of our young candidates for the rite of Confirmation, interrupting their class at the point when they were expressing angst about writing their letters to the bishop, having no idea what they would say and reacting to whatever stereotype of the bishop they had in their minds.

    "I think that Bishop Greg would prefer that you keep it real," was my advice to them, though I probably shouldn't have spoken for you, Greg. :-)

    Now, to the book!

    Greg Rickel

    Kevin, keep telling them, you are exactly right!!

    Gary Young

    Chapter 2 and 3: I only have a few comments:

    Forming arguments from random isolated bible verse quotes without regard to modern Biblical scholarship in the "Missional Manifesto" is completely non-convincing for an atheist like me and doesn't even sound a bit Episcopalian. I find it hard to believe from what I've heard in Bishop Rickel's sermons that he would defend the argument of chapter 3 using that material. Greg is much carefuller about choosing what he says, but don't let me put words in his mouth. I'd love to discuss his version.

    Proselytizing as a public employee in the school system clearly violates the Constitution of the United States which has been repeatedly upheld by the Supreme Court. McNeal is claiming that his religious beliefs justify any means and in this point he is like the right wing groups that constantly try to introduce religion into the public schools and upon which reasonable people place scorn.

    Bellingham has some of those religious groups that carry their condemnation signs and spout bible verses from street corners. I've found that they've never read the Bible they carry. McNeal doesn't seem to be too far from that. My earlier view of Missionary work still holds even more strongly after chapter 3, and indeed chapter 4 too, especially after Margie Adams comment "to understand how we can make use of the roads the evangelicals already have laid." Bring on the native savages.

    Gary

    Kevin Johnson

    Alright! Intro and Chapter 1, done. Still playing catch-up. Gary, I'll have to read chapters 2 and 3 before I can respond to your thoughts.

    Quickie thoughts -- I think that any word that has "mission" in it is going to be viewed by some parts of the church with great skepticism, as it carries a great deal of baggage, for good and ill. I grew up in a conservative faith setting, and "mission" meant leaving the confines of the church walls for the purpose of conversion. Obviously, this is not how the terms is used in this book, where the focus is much more on who we likely ought to be in a world that's in a world of hurt.

    I would see the "shifts" described as being absolutely necessary for the church, but have experienced in most of my life, the "inward" focus in which the church walls, literal and figurative, were to keep the bad out. Self-preservation seemed to be the goal , ensured by the dissemination of proper teaching and "discipleship." Again, "mission" was the conversion of souls, not for our own gain, but so that they would be "saved", and in turn, help to "save" others. So, not only was the focus inward in self-preservation of the church, but also preservation of self into eternal life.

    But, if those who are part of the Kingdom believe that eternal life is NOW, then the living into that begins NOW. So, if we believe that we are in eternal life through Christ, how does that look NOW? When we are led into that by the Spirit, I believe that we know our mission, and that is found by allowing others to discover what I believe are God-breathed passions. I'm sure there will be more about that in the book.

    I will have to leave to sociologists regarding waxing or waning of the cultural phenomena. I'm not a huge fan of thinking in broad strokes regarding "society" or "culture," the macro-level, but can understand and get excited about such things at the individual, micro-level, and, I believe, such "phenomena" are Spirit-breathed, and are true of all who seek spiritual truth. Without them, one has slipped into religion for religion's sake, right?

    JoAnn Winesdorfer

    As I said before, this is a radical book, and I'm surprised that more folks aren't posting comments. I am very comfortable with the concept that church is for empowering us to go out and do our part to make the world a better place.

    However, his vision is that organized religion and "churches" as such will fade away and be replaced by a loose structure of small groups of Christians who are committed to social action and come together to visit and talk about what they are doing. He may be right about this being the wave of the future. He says it is already happening in other parts of the world, where organized religion is on life supports, if that.

    The author believes that social action and being salt and leaven in society should be the most important part of the Christian life. A church should be like an airport, where people come in order to go somewhere, not be an end in itself.

    I like many of his quotes. My favorite in Chapter Two is "There is no need to hear in this characterization a licensing of privatized and individual spiritual life. The biblical designation of what it means to be the people of God IS ALWAYS PLURAL (caps mine). It implies and insists on community."

    The author seems to come out of an evangelical tradition with evangelical theology. I feel his major audience is the large mega-churches, which he criticizes for trying to be a place that offers all things to the parishioners, a place where they can escape the world and live in a sheltered onclave. Inasmuch as people in our faith tradition are doing just that, I agree with his thesis that we should be out and about in the world.

    Personally, though, I would feel deprived if I didn't have the liturgy, music, preaching, and beauty of the worship service. Having this replaced by informal monthly get-togethers would be a loss for me.

    Elise Astleford

    JoAnn, Your comment reminded me of classes I took with Harvey Cox and "The Secular City" when he posited the end of parish churches. Well, that was in 1966 and we are still here! The newcomers at All Saints seem hungry for community and spiritual/personal growth, and an artist friend of mine has just found her way back to church after a long hiatus. She said yesterday, "This going to church thing isn't half bad! The pastor seems to speak directly to me." I worry about spiritual vacuum as well a vapid worship. I wonder how faith will be presented and grow in "informal monthly get-togethers."

    Esther Osborne

    Halfway through this book I began to wonder if any liturgical church was trying to live out these ideas, which I find exciting if daunting in what they require of us! I googled St. Thomas Crookes in Sheffield, England to verify if they were indeed an Anglican church--which they are. What church in this diocese is doing this kind of stuff? I know a young couple in their 20s whose lives are dedicated to service in the world, and they have not been able to find a church home that had 1) young couples; 2) traditional liturgy and music;and 3) companions on the way.
    I generally agree that we need to get back to "The Way" of the 1st century church, but the language (jargon) of the book is a bit of a turn-off. I'm going to read it again, tho.

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